Cardano Uncovered: A Comprehensive Talk with the CEO of Cardano Foundation Frederik Gregaard

Get ready to have your mind expanded. This week on Cardano Over Coffee, we had the privilege of diving into the deep end of blockchain with Frederik Gregard, the CEO of the Cardano Foundation. Frederik's years of experience and in-depth knowledge of the industry led us on a journey across a plethora of topics, including Cardano's education and adoption initiatives, the importance of open-source ecosystems in blockchain, and a fascinating discussion on operational resilience.

Our discussion took interesting twists and turns, revealing the importance of diversification in blockchain infrastructure and its impact on state pool operations. We also touched on the intriguing intersection of NFC chips and blockchain technology, highlighting their potential in product provenance verification. Insights were drawn from the Georgia wine supply chain pilot program. Frederik's fresh perspective on how blockchain could revolutionize corporate governance, especially in countries like Switzerland where digital assets are growing in popularity, offers a unique lens to view the future of blockchain.

And that's not all. We dove headfirst into goal-setting and its impact on fostering adoption and community engagement within Cardano. The need for local involvement, particularly in the UAE, was stressed, along with the importance of convincing government bodies of Cardano's viability as a technology deployment alternative. As our conversation journeyed further, we delved into participatory governance in the blockchain ecosystem and its challenges and possibilities.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to a special edition of Cardano Over Coffee. Brace yourself for an exceptional episode, as we bring you an exclusive interview straight from the tranquil Cabana at Rare Evo, in the enchanting landscapes of sometimes sunny Colorado. Our honored guest for today is none other than Mr Frederick Grigard, the visionary CEO of the Cardano Foundation. Helling from the picturesque landscape of Denmark, mr Grigard boasts an impressive professional journey spanning over 17 years within the realms of professional services and financial industries. His expertise has graced both the Swiss financial hub and the vast expanse of Scandinavia, with a keen focus on capital markets, digital asset management, private banking and trading infrastructure. Mr Grigard's extensive experience resonates powerfully in his guidance of the Cardano Foundation. His leadership is marked, with a diverse background, including various management roles and the cultivation of numerous startups.

Speaker 1: 0:56

In this episode, we embark on a riveting conversation diving deep into the heart of Cardano and the intricate workings of the Cardano Foundation. Tune in to uncover the latest developments and endeavors of the Foundation, as Mr Grigard shares insight that only someone of his caliber can provide. Whether you're a seasoned Cardano enthusiast or curious newcomer, this episode promises an in-depth exploration of all things Cardano straight from the source. So grab your favorite cup of coffee, settle into a comfortable spot. Join us for an enlightening rendezvous with the world of Cardano. There's no better way to catch up on what's brewing with the Cardano Foundation.

Speaker 2: 1:34

So let's just get started with like focused areas of the Foundation. We have, like the operational resilience, education and adoption, and I've been seeing a lot of work in those three aspects in the past year, especially the education. The education has been great. You have the Alpha program that people are taking advantage of and I know that you recently also sent some recommendations for you know, the whole security commissions and things like that and educating them and what is it that Cardano does and it's so important for us to start doing that right? How can we as a community get engaged in that in that side and help the Cardano Foundation kind of channel this education into things that we consider important from the inside as a community and help you kind of direct this education channels into places that we can also help spread out and make those enhancements?

Speaker 3: 2:34

That's a very good starting question. There's a lot to unravel here on Unpacked. So, first of all, we actually never wanted to do education, because among the pioneering entities there was another entity who was responsible for education and we basically looked at it and said you know what, when we meet boardroom people, when we meet the legacy world, and whether we like it or not, we need to interact with the legacy world, specifically as projects grow, what we saw is that people did not fully understand and comprehend what you can do on a third generation blockchain such as Cardano. So I mean then, most people who's trying to, you know, play catch up. They might get Bitcoin or sort of the version of Bitcoin we have now. They might get Ethereum and they might, if they're very good, get a little bit of the you know, the layer two on Bitcoin Sorry, on Ethereum but they will have no idea about what you can actually do with Cardano or with Algorand or with Paul Godot. So we actually said, ok, so how do we, how do we ensure that we get something out which is scalable, where it's covered by, let's call it, an open source license, which means that we can give it to universities, because very often the lexical university. He wants to teach. Because he has to teach, he is not teaching. You know what I'm trying to say is his job is research. So if he has to update the slides and blockchain every six months, this takes too much time. So, basically, what the students were learning was outdated. Secondly, a lot of the companies that were going to all these very expensive Udemy courses and Howard and MIT that they were learning about Bitcoin and Ethereum and don't get me wrong, bitcoin and Ethereum is great, but it doesn't give you the variety of use cases with Cardano offers, which means that we are lacking a big fat tail of the innovation.

Speaker 3: 4:13

The other thing we were trying to do with the educational initiative is we actually wanted to give something, not just to the ambassadors, but give something to everybody out there. So we were very hard and said we're going to do this in English and one of the problems we see with Cardano if I may be that frank is that the specifications and the research are extremely strong, but there is very little documentation about the implementation. So when you kind of start picking the note apart and trying to understand the Haskell and how those things actually work, and you're going to do due diligence and you want to do maybe an audit on it or you want to be part of a procurement process. There were some gaps there and you know, what was really awesome is when you write educational content, well, suddenly it's in black and white and it's in English, right, which basically means that you're starting in that journey of doing proper documentation of Cardano. And so our hope was that people in Africa and middle America and so on, that they now have the ability, at least from the Alpha program and at the end of the year, you get what we call module one and module two and you get all of this content for free. So what you can do is we even have, we're even giving it away to other blockchains. So we basically saying, if you're another blockchain, you don't want to do that, fine, you can use ours, put your own logo on it, change those three slides, which is needed, but what we need to do is we need to have much more people, much more organizations, to jump on a third generation blockchain and get those initiative.

Speaker 3: 5:28

And then last I said it was pretty complicated what you asked me, right that there's been sort of when you speak to regulators and when you speak to people who are extremely busy. You know there's hundreds of blockchains and thousands of tokens and so on. They try to catch up by going to the university and get a course. So we're back to Bitcoin and Ethereum. Right? That means that 99% of those use cases are capital markets really use cases, and for me, it will be a disaster if you're doing an awesome gaming project on Cardano or you're doing a social impact project or you're doing supply chain on Cardano, that you're forced to go through a bank or regulated exchange. That's so far away from what blockchain is supposed to be. So when we're, you know, going to these regulators and talking to them, became very clear for us that what they knew was not accurate with what Cardano was doing. Some of it was, but not the majority of it and what we need-.

Speaker 2: 6:18

Even Coinbase has the wrong information. They tell people that they use stake and they become, as stake operators, become custodians. Okay, yes, yes, yes and that's wrong.

Speaker 3: 6:28

Yeah, I know, this is exactly the point, right? So this now sort of people sent to that we needed material which we could anchor into the university, so when a regulator goes to university to get updated in the knowledge, they could get our content. When I say our free, it's available for everybody to use, right? We were hoping on we'll get a situation that somebody would take the content translated into Nigerian, do a really cool platform or learning app on it. So we also wanted to do a little bit of adoption with this game. But what we then did is we pivot into. I don't know if you saw, we just launched the beta version of our Explorer. Yes, and this was a very, very big thing for us, because what we needed was a tool who had the ability to show that the implementations or the features of Cardano is superior compared to other blockchains.

Speaker 3: 7:16

When you look at it from a regulatory perspective, because most regulators don't have the opportunity to go in and read the code. It's only the last minute. If you really get into a litigation and stuff like that, then you will get there. So I'm actually just coming from Switzerland, as you know, and we've just been interacting with FINMA, which is our local regulator and they actually now said you know what staking is a banking activity, which I understand because they've been looking at Ethereum and doing a deep down with Ethereum and that is custodial staking. I have to be a little careful what I say here, right, but what point is that Cardano is non-custodial liquid staking? So we do have a login period, but that's for two ADA and that's when you register your address right For staking. There's a two ADA login. Yes, that means that the whole architecture of Cardano, including the UTXOs and so on, is fundamentally different. So what we really need and that's also why we actually did this explorer together with, or got input from, several regulators, and we've been presenting it to several regulators and we have a whole set of meetings coming up where we're presenting this Because we needed a way where a regulator could, without knowing the code, could understand these very specific incentive mechanisms there is on Cardano the fact that there is no slashing faster, there's no login period, that there's no ownership change, the fact that we have something as beautiful as protocol parameters and who is deciding on those protocol parameters.

Speaker 3: 8:39

So that's actually why we built the explorer. And then, when we then said, okay, we're building an explorer, we need to also give something back to the community, so the existing community might not be enjoying going into a regulator and trying to push that. So what we actually did is we built most of it in Java and our hope is that by the end of the year we can make all of this open source. We just need to clean it up a little bit so it's a little bit nicer to read, and that means that the community then will get a whole set of Java libraries from us which they can use to build other businesses on top, because there's many really good community let explorers for very specific personas, and I think we would not want to compete against that.

Speaker 3: 9:18

But what we needed? We needed something we could control, which we could verify whether there's a phone number related to it. So if a lawyer or a big four company or regulator want to call somebody, they can call us, they can verify the code. Plus that when we wanted to build something anyway, we could then give something back which allows you now not only to have Python but also have Java as a possibility to get adoption on Kedana, which should make it easier for developers to interact with Kedana, which I think is very important.

Speaker 2: 9:45

And if it will be open source, I guess people can contribute to it as well, right?

Speaker 3: 9:48

That's the whole idea. As I said, the only reason why it's not open source is because I was working a little bit against a public source, whatever you call it right. The deadline was a little bit tight and I needed it out for a couple of meetings with some of the four mentioned personas.

Speaker 2: 10:03

The Kedana Foundation has the whole open source development team. That's been growing, I've noticed.

Speaker 3: 10:10

Yes, actually we have some of them with us here today, right? So what you also saw is we bootstrapped Iken and our hope is that we can let Iken go over time and not bootstrap it anymore, become sort of a living project, and since two years we've been on an open source journey, because what we've seen is that if you really want to have a sustainable and an economic sustainable ecosystem around Kedana, what you need to get to is a situation that there is a much stronger feedback loop than what we have today. So the feedback loop as we have today mainly is about applications and value capture, sort of on the top. So I want to build a really cool application, I want to build an NFT, I want to do something like that, but it's very few people who actually contribute to the core code base or to the core infrastructure, like address tier and so on. So we've been exploring with different very large foundations whether we could host something below them, but it seems like blockchain is a little bit unique or it has some characteristics which doesn't fit so well into the existing open source models. And we've also been exploring together with IRG around intersects if there's a way there.

Speaker 3: 11:19

But the whole idea is that I believe that for Kedana to be truly economic, sustainable over time meaning that we don't need to touch the monetary model and the decentralized treasury Open source is the key which allows people, when they grow on Kallano, to be able to trust that the features they need for the new product releases can also be adopted and implemented in the code base or the APIs or the containers or whatever you need to basically maintain your application landscape is also being maintained and has the needed feature set which you need for your new product offering. So, as we move towards web 3.0 and move towards large language models and so on, what you need is you need really the blockchain and you need this middle layer to have these features which you rely on. Otherwise, you will not bet 100 percent on Kallano or any other blockchain value.

Speaker 2: 12:10

That so that goes into the operational resilience part of things too it certainly has an overlap into operation resilience.

Speaker 3: 12:18

When we speak about operation resilience, we think more about disaster recovery work, monitoring, that kind of things, but part of it is also the ability to trust that amazing blockchain as we have it today, which is run by the community, is also there in 10 years time and 20 years time and is also run by the community. At that time, there is sufficient incentives for the community to run that blockchain. If you get into a situation, for instance, that there's very well and your listeners know this well there's a finite amount of ADA in circulation, there is some ADA research which is set forward to the bootstrapping of the network, which is very different than other blockchains, which is just minting tokens as they need them, like the state is doing. I think that's a difficult value proposition. I really enjoy Kallano's value proposition. What it means is that when the reserves are gone, kallano needs to be self-sufficient.

Speaker 3: 13:23

I always think about it like this if you have a dinner party at least in Switzerland you have these beautiful dinner parties and then you have to bring a course yourself. You have to bring some food yourself. So what you do normally is you bring more than what you can eat yourself. And what happens in these dinner parties is there's always more food left. Nobody can eat all of it. But if you do the reverse and I'm cooking T-bone steaks in the barbecue and I'm having a really good red wine, I'll tell you that we know more red wine and there's no more T-bone steaks, right, because people will just be overeating, and so on. A really good blockchain ecosystem is a blockchain ecosystem where the people using it they leave more on the table than what they take, and that's why Open Source is such an interesting component. I'm bringing that into the equation of sustainable blockchains in the future.

Speaker 2: 14:08

I couldn't agree more with that. I'm a big advocate for open source and I'm always talking about it.

Speaker 3: 14:16

Yeah, but yeah, I have to be honest and say there's not that much open source in blockchain.

Speaker 2: 14:21

I know.

Speaker 3: 14:22

We've been saying so even before I went into Kedano that blockchain is open source, but that's not really what we meant. What we meant is public source. So what we meant is that the source code is available for you to verify and do security audits and other things. That means that you can trust. But verify something we say in blockchain a lot right, but you didn't actually have the ability to contribute to the code base and the process upon what's doing that is very archaic and very hard.

Speaker 3: 14:50

So if you look at Bitcoin, for instance, there's this sort of talk of war of why can't we just update it so we can get the last features with it, right? If you look at other blockchains, they might say, oh, there's a set of core developers and we're working really hard and there's a foundation who's directing the efforts, but there you already sort of lost that battle, because if you have a set of people who is trying to solve problems for the entire world well you know what you're not scalable. But if you can enable a global ecosystem of people who is using the technology and is contributing to the technology, not just by using it, so generating transactions, but also sometimes a writing and API or adding a feature or updating something, you actually get into a situation that you're enabled to solve local problems in a global state and that's really what the source is allowing you to do.

Speaker 2: 15:42

I can just do a great job with that and a lot so many people are contributing to that and I think that's just growing beautifully and it's losing. Another example of that as well. You know it's, I mean, so many things that we are able to do because that exists, you know, and imagine if we had a more like. Education on open source is so important. You know how do we get the community to rally behind the open source movement?

Speaker 3: 16:18

So we have a workshop today after tomorrow around IKIN some of my guys IKIN the smart contract the whole proof of stake. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. A proof of work on a smart contract.

Speaker 2: 16:33

That's interesting.

Speaker 3: 16:34

I find out for it. Yeah, they're going to do some live coding in there and it's. I think it's going to be really cool. And just before that, that's the Hydro team. So we've been working close with the Hydro team as well, right, so that's also I think it's going to be really cool.

Speaker 3: 16:46

I mean, to be honest, I think the community is so big and so waste, right, so I always you know, it's very hard for me to say how do we get the communities to rally around that. I think what the community needs to understand is what is the importance of open source and what does that do to the sustainability? So you know, the ability for Cardano to succeed in a competitive market in the next 20 to 30 years, right, and I think there are open sources. One of the main tools, open source, exist in different layers. So, as you know, the node and so forth is all Haskell based. It's already public source, which means you can go in and read it, but it's not that many people who reach Haskell. Then you have to go to the middle layer, which I spoke about earlier, with the address to your stack and the wallet back in, and some of those components are made in Haskell and some of those components are made in TypeScript and other languages and it makes it a start up easier. And there we see already, now that there's, you know, for chain indexers and others, there's some really cool community projects coming up because they said you know what but the pioneering entities are offering is just not fast enough, it's not good enough and we have specific use case or we enjoy doing, we enjoy solving this problem in a better way. But the trick here is that this is not free software. Right, free software is another sort of beautiful thing, but it's not what we're looking for. What we're looking at is bringing more utility to the people who's building on Cardano than they have today. So I think the most important part is to join Intersect and to join the technical Sterecos and to be in contact with us and Moerco and IoT around the features which you really need to build that beautiful application or that operating model where you're going to solve a big problem or get rich or change the social systems or whatever it is you're trying to do on top of Cardano things which is lacking right and there are things which could get better. So if you're not necessarily so deep into the code or Haskell, then at least bring those feature requests back. And I think that's happened to some extent in Catalyst, but not in a structured enough way.

Speaker 3: 18:41

And from our side maybe mainly sort of the pioneering entities maybe not so much the Cardano Foundation, because we haven't been that technical until maybe like 18 months ago. As you know, what we're going to do is we're going to really do a push around the address tier stack. So I'm not sure everybody know the address tier stack, right. So this is basically the wallet backend. It's Rosetta, which is a tool with many exchanges are using, right. It's a lecture sync and there we see sort of huge gaps in terms of what you can do better. But also, you know, we're going to try to make that much more easy to contribute to it. So we're going to try and see if we can encourage people to contribute to it.

Speaker 3: 19:22

And on the side, as you know, maybe from one and a half years ago, we did a bug bounty program which is still standing, and there we are now changing provider because we chose a very large provider, because what we wanted to do is two things One, we wanted to test the operation resilience of the code base. So encourage people white hackers to find stuff. And the other part is we wanted to get as 50,000 white hackers on this provider. We wanted them to get experience with the Kedano code base because maybe they will see something as beautiful as we see. So we're now changing provider to another provider with more specific provider. And yeah, I think what would be great there is that if there is some more engineering capabilities in the community, that they sign up to that program and they start seeing if they can find flaws and features and bugs and other things, because you know what, that's how, from operation resilience, we get better.

Speaker 3: 20:13

And the more you sort of get into that rabbit hole, the more you start thinking about should we have a second node implementation?

Speaker 3: 20:18

And I would say, yeah, most likely we should have that. And as we move towards D-Rabs and we move towards P2P, you kind of start thinking about stake pool operators and their role. And I think stake pool operators and the role will change significantly in the next three to five years time. It's not just that you're running something in Amazon Web Services or in Google Cloud, it's also that you suddenly start taking responsibilities for the operations of KADANO. So you'll probably see a split there towards people who are sort of technical able to set up a stake pool and able to do a lot of commercials and make awareness around KADANO and you will probably see some who gets more technical able. And what we're trying to do from the KADANO Foundation side is to build tools for the stake pool operators so they actually have more tools to actually live up to that task of actually being responsible for operating KADANO every single second, because you know what KADANO has never been done and that's beautiful, right.

Speaker 2: 21:17

Right now there's a lot of community built tools for that, but the Foundation will like to have a set of tools that can be.

Speaker 3: 21:26

There's actually not any community built tools for specifically for what?

Speaker 2: 21:28

we're speaking For what you're speaking, no.

Speaker 3: 21:30

So there used to be only one entity who did network monitoring, and then there was a few very skilled stake pool operators who built sort of their own little things to monitor their node and their relay servers. And what we said is not just decentralization perspective, but what's really important is there need to be multiple entities. Who takes care of network resilience and network monitoring of KADANO? Because when things happen, they happen fast and we're talking about 1,000 projects who won't have access to KADANO, so KADANO goes down, and what we need to get to is we need to get to a situation is that many, many, many, many stake pool operators participate in network operations and network monitoring, and that obviously needs some incentives around that.

Speaker 2: 22:15

And education as well.

Speaker 3: 22:17

And education. That's why we actually do operators call out of the KADANO Foundation now, with about 800 stake pool operators on our list, where we actually inform them about operations and what's happening when we move to P2P and to Genesis. Also around network monitoring, and we actually, with our new networking team in side reliability engineers, we build up a package for network monitoring which also will be made publicly available, and there we actually already found ways to improve KADANO and we actually submitted improvement proposals to IOG which was accepted, which made a more stable KADANO. So I think it's again amazing when we look at where we're coming from and my hope is, of course, is that it's going to be community projects who think, oh, this is a great way to live. I mean, I'm a side reliability engineer with company X and now I can start doing that for KADANO as well. Then I can maybe get some funding through catalysts or through intersect or whatever that might be, or directly through the chain.

Speaker 2: 23:13

I would like to dive into intersect a little. You wanted to say something, I think.

Speaker 1: 23:16

I just I wanted to say that there's actually some community members out there who have, in fund 10, put in some proposals for monitoring of the blockchain. Off the top of my head, I can think of a gentleman from Germany named Holger who is very, very into programming, and there are SPOs who are looking into this. So it's good to hear that the foundation is stepping up along those lines too, because monitoring of the SPOs and making sure that everything is working properly all the time is a pie.

Speaker 2: 23:45

We used to have pool tours. That's still around.

Speaker 1: 23:47

Pool tours it is.

Speaker 3: 23:49

But what you're talking about here is a little bit more. It's a lot more sophisticated. Oh yes, it's not against pool tours, and pool tours are an amazing job, and there are some trade-offs here, right? So one of the trade-offs, for instance, we've seen is that there was somebody from the community who came to me and said Alfred, why don't you do a partnership with a big cloud provider? Right, because then we can get free cloud space to run our state pools for one to two years and it will probably make Kedano better and there will be a lot of media around it.

Speaker 3: 24:17

When we started looking into that, what we actually found was that we actually what's important is diversity of infrastructure as well.

Speaker 3: 24:25

I mean, if you have everything with one cloud provider, that might be really great in terms of marketing, because it's a great big name. Who says they're partnering with Kedano? Right, but that's really bad from operation resilience. So we're actually on a journey as well in trying to ensure that we do not do a standard around a state pool, because that was my first idea. So we have to do a standard, a reference implementation of a state pool, but that's actually a really bad idea, because then you end up with everybody having the same way of setting up the state pool. What you want to have is you want to have people running on bare metal, you want to have people running in a hybrid environment, you want to have people on different cloud providers, you want to have people with geographical dispersed network lakes and you actually want to have as much diversity in it as possible so you don't end up with a mining conglomerate or anything like that. I mean, I think here decentralization, also in terms of infrastructure.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Yeah, you do have the popularity of running state pools as a service, which also brings it to that as well. I mean, it's a good thing, I don't consider it to be bad. But we have one of our co-hosts, one of our founders of Cordon Overcoffee. He operates, but he has his very, very element about doing more than five. It's like I cannot do more than five because then we're entering into the problem of centralization. So he has five different entities that he helps run their pools, but that's about it. But then you have others that don't, and then you think about the consequences of having everything centralized in one place as well. Like that right, not just the Amazon web services, but also the managing of the state pools as well. So they have so many different angles that I think they're all healthy. It's just about how can we find that?

Speaker 2: 26:19

The diversification of all of it, the healthy boundaries. Even Holger he runs a cloud service too, right. So there's some people that Holger cloud service as opposed to Amazon web services precisely because he saw an opportunity to get the web base run state pools out of digital ocean or Amazon web services and things like that.

Speaker 3: 26:44

I think Kedana's network infrastructure is superior compared to many other stacks. So I think this is probably not the top problem we should solve, but I think it's very important. And I think specifically around custodial services. This is a point. So we've been speaking a lot to some of the larger exchanges and custodial providers because they run 50, 60, 70 pools and that we're not so keen on because, also, they don't really participate in the governance actions and other things. And of course, you can argue well, hold on a second, why should they? Who actually owns the voting power and all those things? There's multiple problems in it.

Speaker 3: 27:25

But I think, first and foremost, I think we just have to be aware that diversification of infrastructure is very important around operation resilience, and to understand that and still allow our stake pool operators to be anonymous is very important.

Speaker 3: 27:41

So, therefore, it can get very hard to get the data points once while them still being anonymous. And in certain countries, as I said before, we have the sort of concept that the regulator actually thinks that you're doing asset management, because it looks like asset management Somebody is giving you money and you're sending a dividend or yield back. I mean, that would be a very easy way and I've even seen some Twitter posts where people are trying to explain staking easily like that. But that's just so wrong. That's not what's happening in Kedano. In Kedano, you participate in network security by giving trust, and the ADA never leaves your wallet right and they're never locked. They're fully liquid and it's the protocol who pays out a potential reward and we can't guarantee the reward right. So those factors are really, really important and I think, yeah, that's a part of what we are doing in the project.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Has it gotten easier to convey that at an enterprise level?

Speaker 3: 28:37

No.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Not at all right.

Speaker 3: 28:39

No, that's why we also started on the educational aspect, but the debate has increased, right, so we're also answering multiple public consultations around these topics. We cannot answer all of that. It's very expensive and you have to be aware of it. Public consultation is really only worth answering if you think that the person reading it would believe and actually understand what you're writing. Right. Very often they already have that you, so it sort of if it takes you like a week or two weeks to put something solid together.

Speaker 3: 29:08

But I think, yeah, maybe the community could help us a bit, because we are trying to make some of those public consultations public right and specifically around some of those really important topics like AI and a desk switch right or digital access regulation in the UK those kind of topics, right. I think, yeah, we could probably be better in activating the community and sort of putting a little bit of social pressure on the local government and saying, hey, you know what? This is inaccurate. There is public missionless blockchains who's able to do exactly what you're wanting to do, so why don't we go in that direction? But it does require them to become technology specific and not technology agnostic, which is normally how you do principle-based regulation.

Speaker 2: 29:53

And you mentioned that, the whole thing about education and universities right, and recently there was a partnership with a university right when there's like an internship that was offered.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Zurich.

Speaker 2: 30:07

And Zurich right. Is that an attempt to kind of start getting into education within the university kind of side of things? Because I think that's important. I know that the NFT XLV, the OTNFT Con, they have formed a good relationship with the University of Nevada and they're also kind of like fostering this education with Cardano and I think it's great. I think that this kind of partnerships are going to really help because the students are going to be able to get the right information.

Speaker 3: 30:41

That goes back to saying that you need to do the. You need to do this sounds really hard, right, but you nearly need to do the PowerPoints, the slides and the charts for them, right? And that's coming back to what we were trying to do with the Alpha program. And what's coming now is this module one and two. Right, because, recently said, having a partnership with a university is great, but if we cannot verify and be sure that they're actually bringing the correct knowledge over to the students there, then it's nearly just a brand affiliation.

Speaker 3: 31:12

And there's some like. There's some I mean, don't get me wrong with university. We really got a lot of value out of it. They also wrote some papers around network incentives on Cardano and other things, and we do the summer school with them every year, where there's a big hackathon and most of the students actually prefer Cardano, so it's multi-chain there, but most students actually like Cardano better and do approval concepts and so on. So I think it's three weeks you go in with zero knowledge and you end up by deploying on Cardano. It's a summer program. Yeah, that's the summer program.

Speaker 2: 31:41

How long has it been running?

Speaker 3: 31:43

So At least three years, because I've been around three years.

Speaker 2: 31:47

I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 31:50

But we had to so really say I take a step back and say you know, One thing is a partnership and other thing is having the ability to give them the content they need to distribute To the people who's learning there. That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 32:02

Yeah. So I just kind of to switch base. You brought something up there Partnerships, and one of the partnerships that you've recently came out with, something that I'm very excited about. I got in the crypto back in early 2016, 2017. Supply chain was a big thing for me. I saw the value in blockchain and supply chain and you guys have recently came up with a partnership for lacrosse and epoch. Is it epoch lacrosse and they do the world Championship of lacrosse and there were some jerseys. Can you talk a little bit about that partnership and and what's?

Speaker 2: 32:37

going on there with it. I try to get myself my hands on one of those jerseys. I don't know if I can. I haven't been able to find them.

Speaker 1: 32:43

I think there are. There's a few on the website if you go to the epoch sports website. There were a few, I want one of those, the white ones, I want the black ones. I like to wear black.

Speaker 3: 32:53

Yeah, actually. So the, the actual partnership is actually with a company called merchandise. Okay, and what merchandise does is they do the merchandise not just for lacrosse, but for multiple sports and other things, and, and what we designed with them was very interesting. Right, because it's a. It's a radio chip, so-called NFC chip. This is a radio beacon. We sit, you know, in the fabric.

Speaker 3: 33:19

Passive or an active one, that's a passive. It's a passive one, yeah, and what's really beautiful about that is that it Guarantees the provenance of many you know things you buy. You have this holographic stamp somewhere, right, and then you know it's sort of real. You think, right, if nobody else has been able to, to put that on right. But now you actually have the ability to verify that on the blockchain, right, because the chip is hard-coded with a number and the number relates to a, you know, an entry, a transaction on the Kedano blockchain, right, so you're able to go in. On the Kedano blockchain. You're also able to see okay, you wanted the black one, right? Yeah, you go in with the black one and on the Kedano blockchain you see a white one. You know there's something wrong, right, and so you're actually able to go in there and verify your product as well. But on top of that, it also allows you to do really beautiful thing as an event.

Speaker 3: 34:07

We are here with right that if you actually are wearing the bumper jackets, that's actually gives you a VIP access, so you don't need to go with an extra batch or identify yourself.

Speaker 3: 34:16

They can just scan your bumper jacket and you go in there or imagine that you are in the stadium, right, and you, you pay a little bit of extra and you want to have that kissing picture where you propose to your wife Well, they can actually zoom in with the cameras for that kind of stuff. Plus, you know, you're playing some kind of a computer game and you are, you know, you're such a proud supporter of your local team that you want to wear that as a skin, right, but a verified skin, not just think you can actually do that as well, right? So this opens up for sort of a combination of bridging, sort of the digital realm and the digital use cases, including supply chain, verified credentials, digital identifiers, but also into the sort of the the fan experience. Really, right? Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's that's probably going to be super powerful. So if you actually go in on your, on your explorer, whatever you're using you can actually find all of these jerseys and you can see the transactions and so on.

Speaker 2: 35:09

Yeah, I saw a pool Pm. I pulled out one, yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:12

Yeah, it's really cool all the information that's there, yeah, so that's actually a part of what you know. We have a very small sort of partnership team and one of the things I've really been very Hard with the money saying you know what? I don't care about brand partnerships who goes to public relations and know a newspaper articles? I want you to be able to verify what you do in the blockchain. So if you do a partnership, you know I will accept it as a partnership when I can see it on the blockchain, which makes sense.

Speaker 3: 35:39

I think it does right, because I think the last couple of years we've seen sort of a trend saying you know, some foundations or some blockchains have been paying a lot of money for sort of approval concept with a large car manufacturer, whatever that is, and when, when we then you know it just never goes into production. You know you have a, you know you have a test transaction and you have a lot of logos, or you have your nice logo on the Formula one car, whatever. That might be right, but you're never able, as a blockchain citizen, to go in and actually see that this company is using this to solve a Real problem for their business. And I think that's how the the direction we are trying to get to with the partnership team and in the Kedana Foundation is we want? I mean, obviously, not everything can be publicly searchable, but we want to get to a situation that you can see business logic and you can verify the efforts from the partners. You've seen by seeing a diversity in transaction and increase in transaction on the Kedana blockchain.

Speaker 1: 36:36

So really, and just kind of staying on the subject, subjects, excuse me of supply chain and Partnerships. Believe it was about a year ago the Georgia wine agency supply chain. I know there was a pilot program running with them. Has there been any updates on what's going on with that specifically? Yes, I like that smile.

Speaker 3: 36:55

Yeah, no, I'm just thinking, because there's some NDA's around it and so on, right?

Speaker 2: 36:59

Yeah, why'd?

Speaker 3: 36:59

you can say if you saw, I did a. I was in London a couple of months back with the deputy prime minister of Georgia and I think was financial time. So did the event and he very clearly said he wants to complete Georgian wine production on the Kedana blockchain. What we are aiming to do and we are on time, but you know it's hard with those kind of things. You know small things fail.

Speaker 3: 37:24

That's a red tape but what we are aiming to get to is a hundred thousand Georgian bottles with multiple wineries on the blockchain within the next six months, and I just heard today from one of my people that the QR codes which is needed to to be, you know, paired with the single bottles. Right is not just a batch, is really single bottles. Right was released through customs, so I think that's that's. That's really good. And then the idea is that we're going to use digital identifier slash, verify credential to have the agriculture ministry also sign off the numerous quality controls they do for export wine, and that's really interesting because then you have a, you know a nation states official sort of ministry who's doing a transaction on the Kedana blockchain where they are signing off that not just that you know Wine brand or that wine yard, but that particular bottle has been through those quality processes, and that's not only going to give us some some data and around where these things are being sold and how they've been monitored, but it's also hopefully going to give a lot of inspirations for other community projects to put this into. You know everything from grain to you know, yeah, but basically everything right there, because you need a low-cost option of doing this Now where I would like to and maybe this is a call out to community projects, right, but where I would like to see a little bit more is that you always need two types of technology for this. We need the blockchain, and there we're building some tweaks around the integration layer which lowers the cost of the Georgian government of doing this with us, which, of course, will also be available for everybody. But the other part is you need a, you need a technology to merge it to the bottle or to merge it to the shoe, or to merge it to the shirt, as we spoke about before, right, and I think here we just need way more options. What would be great is to have sort of a community side where you basically says, okay, is internet of things or is it physical produce or whatever it might be physical and it's the blockchain. So, having sort of like a whole list of different technologies where it's already, you know, document it, and there is a path of bridging the identifier of the chip or the QR code or whatever that is, to the Kedano blockchain I'm having that maybe on the developer portal would be really amazing, because we'll allow everybody to do is not just, you know, find better options to solve their problems. But it also, would you know, be very easy for us to To send business their way. So if my business team is running out and trying to do something and they're like, oh, I would like to do is randomize diamonds, but you know there's no peer reviews of that, well, I develop a portal randomize diamonds. This works really well on those applications.

Speaker 3: 40:20

Here is the GitHub repository of the connector Stuff. Like that, I think, is going to really enable growth around those things. I think, well, that's the chink in the armor. Really, I mean, for physical stuff, you need two technologies Blockchain is one and the second we need more. They're out there. It's not like they're not out there, wouldn't?

Speaker 2: 40:41

the member-based organization help us work in this kind of things together.

Speaker 3: 40:49

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 40:49

Because it sounds to me like it will be something like this. It's perfect for that having this kind of getting together to work for something that's very powerful. We need technology. Besides the technology like you said, the blockchain technology we need the actual technology to pair the things outside of radio frequency IDs and things like that or QR codes. I mean, there's got to be more to it and it would be great if we can put it all together.

Speaker 3: 41:17

I actually think that's going to be multiple membership-based organizations. I hope so.

Speaker 2: 41:21

Membership-based, I mean yes, in that sense it doesn't have to be that one in particular, but I think that we do need this convergence enterprise, the level of collaboration that we have right now, and community level. Something more can take us a little the extra mile. You know what I mean? Yeah, in terms of technology development, they can use our technology.

Speaker 3: 41:47

I mean, this is really about bridging the legacy world with the blockchain world right, absolutely. And I think this is where I think that we haven't seen anything yet. I mean, we've seen a lot of beautiful use cases on Kedant right now, but we're going to see a fat tail of innovation coming in the next 10 years where we're going to do these plugins together, whether that's like digital, digital or large language models, ai and so forth, or whether that is and Web3, of course, right or whether that's physical, and I think we just got started.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Now, you're right about that. It's kind of like the next era that we'll get into right now. It's this adoption, this use cases kind of era that we're seeing, all those use cases that you guys have been finding in the Cardano Foundation. Like we have the United Nations, the HRC, like that's great. I mean, we've talked to them as well and I love that program.

Speaker 3: 42:43

Yeah, they're here to the end of the month as well.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Doing the face too right, which is the you think Chatti's artwork is on that one. Last time it was Turf, now it's Chatti, and then you have the pool that incentivizes that.

Speaker 3: 42:59

Yeah, and more importantly actually is the ability to bring blockchain into the United Nations, right? I don't know if people are aware of this, right, but of the rewards the pool earns, right? 80% goes to displaced people, right, and 20% actually is earmarked towards putting blockchain into United Nations to make more, to play around with blockchain infrastructure.

Speaker 2: 43:27

Are there specific goals within that? Yes there is. Can you share about that?

Speaker 3: 43:32

Not today. Ok, let's try that, but that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 43:37

I like that. Maybe we'll catch up with, like Gabriel.

Speaker 3: 43:40

He's here, yeah, yeah, he's here. But, to be honest, for me it doesn't matter so much, and, of course, I'm very biased towards Cardano, right? Yeah, for me, what really matters is that an organization which is so big like United Nations, right, that will work so much in centralized systems. You know Everything we can do to inspire them to really get their hands dirty around blockchain and Web3 will, in the end, be good for blockchain, right? I agree. So that's what really matters, right, that they explore the art of the possible within their organization so that donors get more transparency, that donors get more opportunities to guide where the money is being spread, that they can verify those things, that new business models are being created, but also that how they monitor and run their business can be, you know, improved by public commissioners. Blockchain, right?

Speaker 2: 44:35

Are you excited about the summit this year? It's going to be your second year hosting. I'm not going to be able to make it, but I'm going to be organizing one in New York City with some friends, so thank you for organizing.

Speaker 3: 44:48

Yeah, so it's going to be great. Yes, I am excited about the summit. I'm also scared about the summit to be honest.

Speaker 3: 44:54

I mean, we never wanted to be an event organization, right, and I think what would be very easy is to do the summit the same place every year, again and again, because what you get out of it is you get sort of you know economics of scale, you know the venue, you know the area, you know the caterer, you know all these things right.

Speaker 3: 45:16

But I don't think that's Carano. Carano is a global project and we need to be, you know, we need to be moving the summit around, right. So, yeah, it's been, you know, it's been tough but also very exciting to work with Dubai and the Dubai government around the summit and, as you can imagine, there is a blockchain convention in Dubai every second week, right, and now we are competing directly against those huge summits, you know. But I think we have a value proposition and we have a huge interest and it also conveys really well with some timing of IG. He was doing some product launches, we are doing some code launches and Dubai is not perfect, but they're doing a lot of good things for blockchain at the moment and they're attracting a lot of good developers, a lot of good projects, a lot of you know. Yeah, so tapping into the local community there and also showing that Carano is. It might be one out of many, but we are the one that's important.

Speaker 2: 46:22

Do you set goals for each summit? I know this is just the second one. Do you have particular goals before the summit that you want to achieve with this event? Which ones are the ones for this year?

Speaker 3: 46:33

So it's a very high level, right? So one is we want to, we want us. We are on the path of ensuring that the community has as much say as possible, right? So last year we had this voting application, which was verified, on the blockchain and we are continuing in that direction. Right? So one of the days is really earmarked for the Carano community, for the advancement of Carano and so forth, and the other day is really around you know, use cases and blockchain adoption. So we actually invited several other blockchains there. We invited companies there who's not deploying anything on blockchain today to try and come and be together with people who live blockchain and see how that goes. So where? Last year was really around doing deals and upgrading and trying to ensure that people can find each other right, and this year is really around. It's a bit more about adoption, I would say. But yeah, we actually have a list of concrete goals. I think it's about 20 something goals we want to achieve with it.

Speaker 2: 47:35

I hope you can accomplish them all.

Speaker 3: 47:39

Well, I hope so for Carano. But the bar is high, right, but if we don't set the bar high, it's also.

Speaker 3: 47:48

But we do see that it's a bit of an issue with trying to go. What we're really trying to do is we're trying to break a little bit the bubble of Carano, because the bubble of Carano is strong and the community is strong. This is good. But when you walk on the street, people heard about Solana or people heard about Ethereum, people heard about Bitcoin right, but they haven't necessarily heard about Carano. If you walk in our circles, we breathe Carano, right.

Speaker 3: 48:16

So one of the main goals is really getting this local involvement in UAE right. We want to ensure that the government understands that Carano is a viable alternative to deploying technology for their country. We want to ensure that the large projects around blockchain and crypto has been attracted to UAE and Dubai, that they understand that Carano and the projects on Carano is not just a viable but is also a scalable and workable solution for it. Right, we want to ensure that some of the forensic providers and others that they really see the value, that some of the local banks and some of the large venture capital funds that they see that you know, hey, carano is millions of people congregating and there's so much value to be tapped here, right. So when I say, break the bubble. It's probably more like enhance the bubble right Enhance it.

Speaker 2: 49:07

it's a better way to put it Enhance the bubble.

Speaker 3: 49:09

So that's one of the things, but that's also very daring, right? This is where it gets.

Speaker 3: 49:13

I mean it does, right. There was another blockchain project I won't mention the name we had at the summit in Dubai last year, right, and they ended up, you know, being short of people, right, because there's a little bit some similar vision, right. So they actually ended up sort of giving away free tickets and so on. You got a huge party and festiva. That's right, but, like I don't know, it's a double digit percentile. They were just there for the free food. Absolutely, that we don't want. That's where we draw the boundary right. I mean, one thing is enhancing the bubble and so on right, but we want to enhance it with people who can see themselves deploying Cadano or contribute on Cadano, or at least contribute or deploy on blockchain. It's not just about filling the room.

Speaker 2: 50:00

No, I couldn't agree with you more. It's a lot of that and this business. I have to say I've been to quite a few of those events that it doesn't really produce value, right. So that's what we really want to do and I wanted to ask you real quick before we I know that we're kind of probably getting close to that out the hour, we can talk forever, that's not good for a living, but governance I have to talk about governance.

Speaker 2: 50:27

I mean, we're really kind of breathing it now, right? I personally I hosted a couple of CIP 1694 workshops. I chose to do them virtually so, because my goal was to I noticed it talk about bubbles. I noticed a lot of those conversations were happening in bubbles, you know, like the same people, the same people. I was like we have so much community here, why aren't all these people participating in the governance talk? So my goal was to reach to kind of like the everyday, regular folder population that does not necessarily think that governance is their place and help them understand that there is a place in governance for them. And it was great.

Speaker 2: 51:14

Like you know, we had great participation. We also hosted Twitter Spaces. We did readings. We had one of our friends in the community. He did a CIP 1694 for dummies where we did a whole reading and people get comfortable asking questions, and it was a great experience and we were able to gather so much more input to harvest what I consider to be like a good wisdom of crowd situation right, when you have people from all over the world with different circumstances that can bring in completely different perspectives. So I'm very excited about taking this and continuing to do that and bring the conversation as far as possible. What are your thoughts on this whole governance era?

Speaker 3: 52:00

I think doing nothing is the wrong move. I mean, status quo is not acceptable where we are as a community. So I think the whole discussion around CIP 1694 has been really fruitful. I think the workshops has worked really well, both in Tokyo and soup, which we hosted, and also in Edinburgh. But I think it's a really hard problem to solve and what you have to be aware of is that the larger Kedano gets, the more hard it will be to solve. And the other part is that what looks good on paper very frequently doesn't work in real life.

Speaker 3: 52:36

So we've seen a lot of governance experiments. I think one I can probably can mention the name because it's so famous, right, but Mekadau was very early on in the governance experiments, right, and they had real situations where, on paper, this was amazing, right, you had people going in and voting on the interest rate and all those things, and then suddenly you have a situation where people don't do that, right, and then people don't participate in the governance because you know, I don't know, they're busy, right, and then suddenly everything falls apart. So for me, I think it's about minimal increments. We need to learn as we go. My big fear is that we, from one day to the other, do a big switch and then we sit back and pray that it works. I think that that would be so wrong. I would much rather go a little bit slow and then, you know, do minimal increments, and that's also why we did from the Kedano Foundation, the stake pool operators vote.

Speaker 3: 53:31

And I say stake pool operators vote. It says it's a little bit wrong to say it like that, right, because the way we designed it was. We said we have really good crypto premises, we have a really good blockchain and we have good tooling. So we only needed to do a small code update for the CLI to allow that stake pool operators can actually vote. And then you can say, yeah, but they voted, like, with the identity, so you could actually see what they voted, and I'll be like yeah, well, that's sometimes there's a better way to do it than being anonymous, right? And then there was this sort of brace period where you could, as a delegate, I say, hey, my stake pool operator, he voted towards that. I don't agree with that so that you could actually withdraw your stake, right?

Speaker 3: 54:13

So for us, this was a tremendous experiment in terms of you know how many stake pool operators would actually, you know, have the necessary technical skills to do this. We're willing to learn how to do that. We're willing to show the private opinion right, because you know a stake pool operator normally have a business plan or they're doing something, but now they actually have to give their view about two protocol parameters right, and that, you know, suddenly also creates a discussion is it the right protocol parameters? Is the framing of the vote correct? It opens up this big Pandora box. So, yeah, so in short, my view is small increments, we need to learn and but we need to keep moving. We cannot end up in a situation like we did a little bit with catalyst, right, well, we had a lot of learnings but no movement. So what's important is learn, move, learn.

Speaker 2: 55:04

You had something very important. I do remember that experiment very involved in it myself. We kind of fall again and what you were mentioning, the looks good on paper and you have this great idea, but this whole incentivizing people to participate is so hard. When we moved into the second stage where people were supposed to vote with their delegation, it was really hard to get people to actually get involved in that part. It's like, hey, I don't want to move my delegation because I'm earning rewards here. I don't necessarily agree with what my pool stake operator was saying, but there are all these different other intricacies to incentivize participation. Like you said, it's slow turning things here and have to test.

Speaker 3: 55:56

But isn't that sort of a weird way. That's democracy, right? So a lot of us, we always have an opinion about what people are doing something wrong, right, you can do better, right. But when we have to commit ourselves and say, hey, I think this is how it should be, this is the better way, we get a little bit scared, right, because we need to open that Pandora box and we need to go down into the hole and we need to think things through.

Speaker 3: 56:18

So I just recently became a Swiss citizen. So I had a period of over 10 years where I couldn't vote in my home country. So my home country is Denmark, that's where I'm born and when you leave Denmark you can't vote. So I had a period in between where I paid taxes in Switzerland, I contributed to my local society in Switzerland, but I couldn't vote. So in Switzerland we vote about everything, literally everything, and we can also give the politicians the red card and basically say we do not agree with you. You only need like 50,000 signatures and you can basically circumvent the decision, right? And what's really funny or funny is really interesting my little community. I live in a small town with 4,000 people Some of those people they pay attention to.

Speaker 3: 57:07

If I come down on that Sunday where I was voting, if I come down and cast my vote and I had situations where people come down to me in the street and said I didn't see you at the ballot and I'm like, no, but I voted with letter, so I'm okay. And then they do like a test question so what did you vote on? So not what I said, I said yes or no, but what was sort of my main topic of concern? And then I got this was exactly this and they're like oh, that's okay, most important is that you participate, and I think that's what's coming back to you a little bit right.

Speaker 3: 57:38

I think participation is really, really important, but so is also that you know we have to accept that not everybody wants to participate in these things, and I think that's where the solution with DREPs is so powerful that you have the opportunity to say okay, somebody who actually wants to understand these complex situations, I'll give my voting power to that person or that entity and they will represent me in these very complicated matters. But if I see that they're not doing what I'm expecting, I can move my voting power back instantly. I don't have to wait four years or five years, right, so you can actually you know. So I think that's a very interesting experiment where it's the only time we'll tell. But it certainly for me looks very, very powerful, and I like sort of this idea also that we sort of like in my little community that people sort of keep me hungry. Right, did you vote? It's not like if it was yes or no.

Speaker 2: 58:33

I live in a small town right now and they are like that too. Small towns are a little more engaged, in my opinion. I get very involved in local, my local government. Lived in cities and, living in a small town right now, I can tell that people get more involved. People get the feeling more that this matters and affects me, but they're still always the same handful of people that are there all the time right. So it's like, in my opinion, it's like I don't know how you solve this participation thing. I'm a curious person so I'm always, like you know, curious to see what kind of ideas we can get, because the more participation that actually works for everyone, it's like it's better for the system, it's better for the ideas, the solutions, but it's not easy. It's not easy to get there.

Speaker 3: 59:23

So you know, and nobody has solved it yet, right? What we are doing is we are challenging the old Greeks, right, exactly. We are throwing thousands of years back where people were thinking very deep thoughts about the best way of representing voice, the best way of, you know, driving society, right?

Speaker 2: 59:41

We're taking some of their things like getting paid for voting and some of those you know.

Speaker 3: 59:46

Honestly speaking, this is probably one of the largest evolution in democracy we've seen lately. Right, we are building new tools. We are, you know, we're changing the airplane's engine while we are flying it, right, and we have millions of people who can you know, who have stands on falls with the decisions which is being made, right? So we are changing the whole tooling about. You know what it means to participate in a community or a city-state or a country. I think that's amazing. That is changing social systems, and if we change the way you give concern of voice and liquid voting and all those things, what you will get is you will also get different leaders. You get different leaders. You get different outcome. Get different outcome.

Speaker 3: 1:00:32

Well, there is a hope for human race, right, and we are not, you know, sitting here and just optimizing for ourselves, but we are participating and I think that's hopeful compared to what you see out there with the big social media platforms and the incentivized idea that we should separate people and get them bound into this rabbit hole of, you know, getting angry and angry at each other. Right, it's about collaboration. It's about us standing together as humanity, and I think that's why it's so important. But let's be honest, nobody solves this, right, Okay. So it's a very hard problem to solve, but we are on the right path.

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

Just the fact that we have that at one of the forefront of what we're doing. It means the world, because that's keeping that, as a you know, in our values. It's important for Cardano. That's what drove me into Cardano in the first place, to be honest, is the fact that we cared about that problem, and I understand it's not an easy one to solve, but it's an important one to try and try and especially use this technology. Do you want to say something, brent? I thought you were saying okay, no, I think you said something. But yeah, I mean this has been great. I mean, thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 3: 1:01:47

Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:01:48

No, this is.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

I could ask you so many things. I'm like gosh, I'm a talker and I have so many questions. Like I can ask you something Switzerland and blockchain how do they go together? Like how do they perceive it in Switzerland and do you think that it will be something that, since it's such a I know that in Switzerland, they are very involved as a community and, like you just mentioned, solutions like this to them is do you think that you can you see that happening, like in a future? Like them using Cardano or something like this to enhance what they already have?

Speaker 3: 1:02:35

Well, you're already able to incorporate a company with digital assets in Switzerland, so you can put in the capital with digital assets, you can pay your taxes with digital assets, you can pay for your driver license with digital assets. I mean, there's multiple ways of basically doing things. The government has sponsored sort of a company with us in corporations and corporate actions on blockchain right. We have the two first banks in the world, you know, built around blockchain. We've got banking licenses. We changed the rules in Switzerland to accommodate blockchain digital assets. So, yeah, I think so. I think Switzerland sees this as a huge opportunity.

Speaker 3: 1:03:20

For governance you think it'll Well. You have to be very honest and say you know, governance in Switzerland works really well. Yeah it does Well. That being said, you could always get a higher voter participation, but when you have a lot of votes, that also goes down right. So I think so. For national and federal governance, I think Switzerland will be a slow adopter because they have good system, because they have a good system.

Speaker 3: 1:03:45

Yes, but for corporate governance, there's a huge need to improve. There's a mega big gap and this is not just Switzerland was general between what the board is trying to optimize for, what the sea level is optimizing for, what the shareholders and stakeholders are optimizing for. We have all these discussions today around Fortune 500 companies and if you're in the board, are you optimizing towards the next shareholder earnings? Are you optimizing towards social impact of the communities you're touching, the employees you're hiring? I think corporate governance, specifically around that on blockchain, is a fantastic use case. I don't know with you, do you have any shares? Yes, do you participate in the corporate actions around those shares?

Speaker 2: 1:04:34

I do. I do because I'm you know, but again, I tend to be one of the few. That's my point right.

Speaker 3: 1:04:42

Most people actually don't do that because they don't have the time or the education to understand what's even being proposed. They don't have the tools or the ability to take other people into the same room and say we want a change here for this company. And sometimes you need X percent of shareholders right, but how do you rally those right? But now we have the internet and we have blockchain, so we have a way of rallying that right. So I think that corporate governance about companies. There's a blockchain use case just waiting to be.

Speaker 2: 1:05:13

And the solution is already there.

Speaker 3: 1:05:15

Yeah, yeah. That's the most beautiful part about it, then what you will see is you will see we can talk about other types of elections and things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:05:22

It's a little more complicated, right, elections and, like you know, public officials and things like that. Well, I guess, in my opinion, I look at it from the perspective of privacy because even though, when you have shares and you have things like this, that doesn't bother me. But I mean, I'm originally from Venezuela, I'm from South America. Venezuela has, like it's been a journey, I have to say, when it comes down to governance, you know they track you down, they see and force you to vote. So people you know, as a point of voting, because you end up, you know, have a target on your back If you don't align with the government. So I would love to see solutions like this that will provide but again, then I see the importance of having privacy for those kinds of things right, Well, I think that's one of the reasons.

Speaker 3: 1:06:12

going back to education, I think that's one of the reasons why it's so important that we stay true to the cause of Kedano and staying true that the state pool operator does not need to verify or identify themselves using normal means in terms of AML and KYC. Well, if they run a business and it's real business, then, yes, there is some requirements maybe there, right, but that we have the option of an amenity, right. It's very important and I think, therefore, not just because of that, but that's one of the reasons why a public permissionless chain is so important, right, but I also have to say I'm a little bit of a realist, right, and I don't know Venezuela very well, but I don't think it's a technology problem they're having there.

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

Oh no, absolutely. What I'm saying is that, because of what goes on in there is made me value them the importance for some people that it is to have an anemic when it comes down to voting. Some other countries don't see it and I learned that doing the CIP-694 workshops. I participated in a lot more than I hosted and I could tell that there's a difference. And some people that come from certain environments but they've never had to deal with that, that they're like oh, who cares, I want to see who you voted for. What's the problem? Was there to hide? And then you have other people that have different experiences that are like well, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:07:37

I think the trick is you should be able to see if people voted for, not what they voted for. But again that changes. Then right, because I think when we think about Kedano as a public infrastructure right, and if the state pool operators run that infrastructure right, I think for some decisions you actually might want to see what they voted right. So if you think about state pool operators and DRPs, you want to see what they did Because you delegate responsibility to them towards that right. So I think there's some differences here in incentive structures and so on.

Speaker 2: 1:08:10

You don't want to necessarily put out their pool of delegated power to the DRIP, but you do want to see what the DRIP is to it without power. I think that's even an open discussion.

Speaker 3: 1:08:21

Right, yeah. But I mean, let's be honest, if Kedano is a public infrastructure right, and it's used as that, right, then the example, I think, why not? But if Kedano is used as a voting teleport national government, then what you're saying is how it holds true. So I think that's the beauty of third generation blockchain is that you have optionality, optionality, multiple voting systems so you can pick what you need for your use case and you can describe very clearly why this is what you picked, right. So you can basically make the biases very open and transparent, which means that we, as parts of the nerds of society right, we can go in and see oh, but you chose the wrong voting mechanism because the bias was there, right. That means we can start going in and verifying those decisions, which hopefully means that we are getting to better decisions again, going forward, right. So I don't think it's about finding one solution here. It's about being open enough to have multiple different ways of doing it, being ready and capable for all of them.

Speaker 2: 1:09:25

Well, that's coming back to operation resilience right.

Speaker 3: 1:09:27

Because the more you want to be the Swiss Army now, if everything, the more you need the ability to receive code contributions from third party entities who needs this for their local use case. But that's basically an attack vector to the code base, right. The bigger an attack vector to the code base, the more eyes you want to have on the code base, the more people who has the ability and the tooling to verify that it doesn't take down Kedano, right? So I mean, the power of Bitcoin is it doesn't change, right? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

that's true.

Speaker 3: 1:09:58

The power of Kedano is that it's open to so many use cases and it's still evolving with society, right, but that means that the attack vector for code chains is so much larger with Kedano, even though the market cap is so much more than that. So, and I think that's again why you will not see one chain over the others. You will see multiple representations and implementations, right, but as a third generation blockchain, I think we can be very proud of Kedano.

Speaker 2: 1:10:23

Yes, we are.

Speaker 1: 1:10:24

Well, I want to thank you for stopping and talking with us.

Speaker 2: 1:10:27

It's been a great conversation, thank you, that's big Fredrick, and I hope you make it to one of our Twitter spaces.

Speaker 3: 1:10:33

Love to have you there. Just remind me yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:10:36

Yeah, linda from Stakepool ticker, malu, twisted Gears, meehan Enigma, stakepool ticker one Monster, stakepool ticker MNSTR, epochsec and Psycho's Card Game. We appreciate all your support. If you'd like to have your name or business mentioned in future podcasts or have your logo and links displayed in the description of our podcast, click the support button now.